The following according to the Independent is a full transcript of what was said Thursday during events that led up to Ken Livingstone's suspension from the Labour Party.
It does not however include the questions he was responding to meaning that in some ways his words remain taken out of context. However it may help those of you trying to understand what was said that was deemed offensive and why. But it may not. BBC London, Vanessa Feltz Show The interview that sparked the controversy Asked whether Naz Shah was antisemitic: “She’s a deep critic of Israel and its policies. Her remarks were over-the-top but she’s not antisemitic. I’ve been in the Labour party for 47 years; I’ve never heard anyone say anything antisemitic. I’ve heard a lot of criticism of the state of Israel and its abuse of Palestinians but I’ve never heard anyone say anything anti Semitic.q “It’s completely over the top but it’s not antisemitism. Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews. On Israel and Palestine: "The simple fact in all of this is that Naz made these comments at a time when there was another brutal Israeli attack on the Palestinians; and there’s one stark fact that virtually no one in the British media ever reports, in almost all these conflicts the death toll is usually between 60 and 100 Palestinians killed for every Israeli. Now, any other country doing that would be accused of war crimes but it’s like we have a double standard about the policies of the Israeli government. On Antisemitism in the Labour Party: “As I’ve said, I’ve never heard anybody say anything antisemitism-Semitic, but there’s been a very well-orchestrated campaign by the Israel lobby to smear anybody who criticises Israeli policy as antisemitic. I had to put up with 35 years of this. “Let’s look at someone who’s Jewish who actually said something very similar to what Naz has just said. Albert Einstein, when the first leader of Likud, the governing party now in Israel, came to America, he warned American politicians: don’t talk to this man because he’s too similar to the fascists we fought in the Second World War. Now, if Naz or myself said that today we would be denounced as antisemitic, but that was Albert Einstein. “After Jeremy became leader I was having a chat with Michael and he said he was very worried because one of his friends who was Jewish had come to him and said ‘the election of Jeremy Corbyn is exactly the same as the first step to the rise of Adolf Hitler to power’. “Frankly, there’s been an attempt to smear Jeremy Corbyn and his associates as antisemitic from the moment he became leader. The simple fact is we have the right to criticise what is one of the most brutal regimes going in the way it treats the Palestinians.” Daily Politics, BBC Two A response to critics aired at 12.10 On antisemitism in the Labour party. “Literally I’ve been a member for 47 years I’ve never heard anyone say anything antisemitic. I’ve heard a lot of criticism of Israel. If I was to criticise the South African government as riddled with corruption you wouldn’t say I was racist – you’d say I was being critical of that government. “I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing. On Naz Shah: “It’s completely over-the-top and rude, but who am I to denounce anyone with all of that. It was wrong. I don’t think she is antisemitic, it was incredibly rude but I don’t believe she is an antisemite. When the NEC investigation is finished they'll say it was rude and over the top but they won’t find any evidence that she actually hates Jews. “We’ve got to investigate all these charges and the context in which they are made. If she is antisemitic like the other three or four members we’ve found who are antisemitic, she’ll be expelled.” On other alleged antisemites in Labour. “That is part of the classic antisemitic thing about an ‘international Jewish conspiracy’ – that is the reason we need to have an investigation. I’ve got an open mind. I’ve seen nothing to suggest to me that she is antisemitic. I wouldn’t have supported her if I [thought] she was antisemitic. On whether what Hitler did was legal, as stated by Naz Shah: “That’s a statement of fact – Hitler, I’m sure, passed all those laws that allowed him to do that … it’s history … literally, Hitler was completely mad, he killed six million Jews. “She’s not saying it’s legal to kill six million Jews: what they were doing in that country allowed them not just to kill six million Jews, kill all the communists, kill all the leftists like me, my father almost died when a Nazi sub sank his boat. I have no sympathy with Hitler. On another alleged antisemite in Labour. “No, that is, and that’s why she’s been suspended or expelled. What I’ve said is that in 47 years of the party in all the meetings I’ve been in I’ve never heard anyone say anything antisemitic. There are bound to be in a party of half a million people you’ll have a handful of antisemites, you’ll have a handful of racists. “You’ve managed to dig out virtually every antisemitic comment that Labour members have made out of half a million people. I’ve never met any of these people. There’s not a problem. You’re talking about a handful of people in a party of half a million people. Jeremy Corbyn has moved rapidly to deal with them. “ On Jeremy Corbyn’s response to the allegations: “He met with Naz and she agreed she would stand down while the investigation is going on. He called her in to see her. “There’s been a huge investigation of virtually everything that anybody put on the internet … many of these people are quite new and recent members of the party that joined in the big influx. 300,000 new people came in.” On his meeting a man accused of antisemitism in London: “This is the man who called for Muslims around the world to donate blood after the attacks of 9/11 when he came to London I went with him to the Regent’s Park mosque where he said no man should hit a woman and you should not discriminate against homosexuals. So I can’t equate what I heard him say… he made no antisemitic statement while he was here in London. I don’t investigate people. “I’ve simply said what I believe to be true which is that Naz was not antisemitic. She was completely over the top, very rude, but that does not make her an antisemite. “ On John Mann’s comments: “He went completely over the top. I was actually doing a radio interview at the time that he was bellowing that I’m a racist antisemite in my ear. I’ve had that with John Mann before a few weeks ago screaming that I was a bigot down the phone. “I’m not an apologist for anyone who makes antisemiticstatements. What I’m saying is don’t confuse antisemitism with criticism of the Israeli government policy. “These things erupt, they dominate the news for 24, 48 hours, people calm down again when you go back and check what was really said. I’m sure people have had calls from the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph saying ‘he’s said this, that and the other’ – they’ll find out that’s not what I’ve said. We’ll leave Naz to be investigated, I believe she’ll be cleared of antisemitism, if she isn’t she’ll be expelled from the party.” On calling a Jewish journalist a “concentration camp guard” whilst Mayor of London: “I can’t tell if a journalist is Jewish or Catholic or anything. If a journalist is chasing you down the street at nine of clock at night you might be rude to them. Some people might have hit him! He said he was just doing his job. We went all the way to the High Court and the judge opened his judgement by saying ‘I hope no one here is going to suggest that Mr Livingstone is antisemitic’. We won the case.” On claims about Hitler and Zionism: “He didn’t win the election, he became the largest party in 1932, his policy here wasn’t to kill the Jews it was to deport them all to Israel. The simple truth, if you go back and check, that was Hitler’s policy when he first came to power – to move Germany’s Jews to Israel. I denounce that. “I’m being questioned in an interview I answer the question. You’ve never known me not answer a question you’ve put to me. I’m asked a question, I answer it … the simple truth is that was Hitler’s policy in 1932 when he came to power. “Things are either historically true or they’re not – that’s one of the reasons I pursue the policies I do because I study history. If you study history you can avoid making the same mistakes again. “My objection to the Israeli government is that for nearly 70 years the Palestinians have been kept in appalling conditions. I’m not making any link between the current Israeli policy and Hitler. I was asked the question in the interview and it just so happens to be a historical fact. If you say to me 'is it true that we were invaded by the Normans in 1066' I’m going to say yes, because it’s true, and I’m not going to avoid the truth.” On John Mann: “I’d simply say to John Mann go back and check. Is what I say true, or is it not? The BBC, you’ve got a huge team of researchers, it will take just an hour or two to go back and confirm. I was asked a question, I answered it. I have never in 45 years since I won my first election, I have never lied. I have always answered the question. “He was a monster from start to finish but it’s simply the historical fact. His policy was originally to send all of Germany’s Jews to Israel and there were private meetings between the Zionist movement and Hitler’s government which were kept confidential, they only became apparent after the war, when they were having a dialogue to do this. “What John Mann just said isn’t true – I’ve not said that Hitler was a Zionist, what I said was his policy in ‘32 was to deport Germany’s Jews to Israel. I condemn that. I never said it, what I said was that was his policy. “I’m not raising these points. I was planning to have a nice quiet morning in the garden until suddenly I’m descended on by all these journalists saying ‘is this true, is that true’. I’m be much happier just to do the gardening, it’s such a nice day out there.” “It’s not inflammatory to tell the truth and one of the reasons we make so many mistakes in politics is that so few politicians study history. We keep making the same mistakes. “All the times I’ve been interviewed I’ve never refused to answer a question. If someone puts a question to me, I’ll answer it. The simply reality is that I answered that question. “It shouldn’t take, given the scale of the BBC’s research department, for someone to go back and check. It will confirm that what I’ve said is true: that’s the historical truth. I’m not going to deny that the Normans invaded Britain in 1066, we have to live with history. The World at One, BBC Radio 4 A response aired at 1pm On John Mann: “I’ve had the same problems with John Mann before, he was accusing me of being a racist. He does go over the top. You try and have a conversation with him and he just keeps talking over you – there’s not much you can do about it, really. That’s just John Mann’ style. “Back in 1932 when Hitler won the election that brought him to power his policy then was to deport all Germany’s Jews to Israel. That’s not because he was a Zionist, it is because he hated Jews. He then had a dialogue with the leaders of the Zionist movement, private, not him personally but his officials, privately discussing whether or not to proceed with that policy. In the end he didn’t – he chose to kill six million Jews. “It’s a statement of historical fact: he was, well not him personally, but senior officials were in a secret dialogue with the Zionist movement about whether to proceed with this policy. “It’s not inflammatory to tell the truth and one of the reasons we make so many mistakes in politics is that so few politicians study history. We keep making the same mistakes. “All the times I’ve been interviewed I’ve never refused to answer a question. If someone puts a question to me, I’ll answer it. The simply reality is that I answered that question. “It shouldn’t take, given the scale of the BBC’s research department, for someone to go back and check. It will confirm that what I’ve said is true: that’s the historical truth. I’m not going to deny that the Normans invaded Britain in 1066, we have to live with history. On raising the issue of Hitler: “It lays you open to people smearing and lying about you. I’ve always answered the questions put to me and that simple fact is we’ve had a handful of people saying antisemitic things in the Labour Party, they’ve been suspended, some of them are on their way to being expelled, some of them have been expelled already. “I have to say I supported Naz in her campaign, I wouldn’t have done that if I thought she was antisemitic … she was completely over the top and rude and she apologised. I’ve been a Labour party member for 47 years and I’ve never heard anyone say anything antisemiti. If you’re a bigot you’re not going to join the Labour party. “She’s been suspended, there’ll be an investigation. We’ll see what the whole quote is, not just a bit of it. If it turns out she’s antisemitic she’ll be expelled from the Labour party, but if it turns out she isn’t I’ll accept that. “Let’s see what the investigation comes up with because I wanted to see the whole context of that. What worries me is this blurring of antisemitism with criticism of Israel undermines the importance of tackling antisemitism. Someone who is antisemiticisn’t just hostile to the Jews living in Israel, they’re hostile to their neighbour in Golders Green, or the neighbour in Stoke Newington. It’s a personal loathing just like people who hate black people. On people calling for him to be suspended: “All my usual critics – but the simple fact is I agree with them; there is no place for antisemitism in the Labour party. For them to suggest I am antisemitic is a bit bizarre considering we worked with Jewish groups and put on exhibitions about the scale of the holocaust, we worked with Jewish groups to tackling the scale of antisemitism back in the 1970s. I’ve always opposed every form of racism whether it’s against black people or Jews. “I’m going to stay in the Labour party and continue to fight against all forms of racism and discrimination as I have my entire life.” BBC Newsnight Afternoon reaction after his suspension released before programme “If you don’t want me to answer questions journalists shouldn’t ask them. All I wanted to do today was to go out and do some gardening and then some journalists asked me a question, I answer it too. I would have loved it, it’s a nice day. “One of the problems that we’ve had ever since Jeremy Corbyn got elected is that the media whip up all these issues which are side-issues, not the ones that really … will he wear a white poppy, was he going to bow to the Queen? What we want to talk about is Labour's economic strategy about massive increases in investment, cracking down on tax avoidance.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-anti-semitism-row-full-transcript-of-ken-livingstones-interviews-a7005311.html
0 Comments
Op-ed: Friday we posted "Not murder when an Israeli kills a helpless Palestinian." It was an opinion piece written by a retired teacher in Canada-a person who could never be seriously accused of being anti-Semitic or racist. It openly shares an opinion and it does not have a hidden agenda nor is it aimed at misleading the reader. That cannot be said for "Anti-Semitism at the heart of Corbyn's Labour Party: Devastating dossier exposes how extensive anti-Jewish bigotry is in Labour and poses profoundly troubling questions its leaders MUST answer" posted by the Mail Online Saturday. That piece begins "To the duffel-coated members of Labour’s ‘loony Left’, one particular weekly newspaper was, for much of the Eighties, required reading" but is that relevant in 2016? That lead into the story however must tell you all you need to know about its credibility? If you want an idea of the standard of journalism at the Mail Online consider that Katie Hopkins, previously a columnist at the Sun, joined the team in September 2015 days after Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour Party. If you are British you must have heard of Hopkins who has made her name and paid the bills out of abuse and sensationalist headlines such as: Petition against Katie Hopkins passes 250,000 mark Katie Hopkins attacks Kelly Clarkson again Katie Hopkins seeks personal attention out of the death of Cilla Black So how credible is Saturday's piece in the Mail? It uses information from the past, social media and Bitterities within the Labour party to craft an article which sensationalises a perceived anti-Semitic view allegedly running rampant in the Labour Party. You will need to read it carefully and perhaps more than once to see that it is in many ways out of time and a false flag. Are some so desperate to remove Jeremy Corbyn as party leader and John McDonnell as Shadow Chancellor that they are prepared to rake up old history and to sacrifice local elections scheduled for May? But in all political parties there are rogue elements. Tory Grant Schapps resigns amid bullying scandal for example. Sometimes it is the young who have a passion for politics, life and fair play. The first, a passion for politics, appears to have been true of PM David Cameron who allegedly in 1985 was a top member of the "Federation of Conservative Students, which produced the "Hang Mandela" posters. In 1989, Cameron worked in the Tory Policy Unit at Central Office and went on an anti-sanctions fact-finding mission to South Africa with a pro-apartheid lobby firm sponsored by PW Botha." The Independent wrote in 2009 "The trip by Mr Cameron in 1989, when he was a rising star of the Conservative Research Department, was a chance for him to "see for himself" and was funded by a firm that lobbied against the imposition of sanctions on the apartheid regime." Two wrongs do not make a right and calling all who criticise Israel - when it invades a neighbouring country and kills many, grabs land, appears to want to squeeze another small nation into oblivion and encircles that small country with a huge wall turning it into the world's largest open air concentration camp - anti-Semitic is plain wrong. This writer is not bigoted but nor is she naive enough not to realise that there may be elements in any political party with hidden agendas, and there may be "double agents" of sorts, trying to help the other side along. And of course money rules. The piece in the Mail Online uses social media posts to attack individuals. In one case it attacks a fair-minded individual who became embroiled in tit for tat debates on social media. During the last Israeli invasion of Gaza passions ran high. Can you really use a social media post in the heat of the moment to attack an individual's credibility? Hypocrisy rules in 2016. Raking up old news to cobble a story together can result in many things but is it really news? Still we have taken a small leaf out of the Mail Online's book of journalism to see where it leads. As for social media it can be many things including interesting, manipulated, funny, abusive, paid for, misinterpreted, taken out of context, polite, vile and at times far from social. And there are many forums online. Those that are closed are rarely invitation only; people tend to ask to join and are accepted or not. Why they join is relevant. Administrators of these groups face huge 24/7 challenges monitoring conversations, watching out for trolls, banning abusers and weeding out those with hidden agendas. That means invariably some problems from time to time but many of the political forums enable people to get together and share ideas and knowledge. Perhaps Labour needs to start fielding members to Tory forums, so they can copy text out of context and allow the mainstream media to manipulate politics ahead of elections? Finding a left-wing mainstream media source however could prove tricky. May 5, 2016, Vote Labour and ignore the right-wing hype. Remember WE are Labour, not the Bitterites or high-profile personalities. Op-Ed: The right-wing media are loving Labour party tussles that have surfaced since Jeremy Corbyn was elected party leader on September 12, 2015. But all too often it seems there are some within the party, and not just the rank and file, that are lapping it up if not actively encouraging it. This has led to open letters in Tory supporting publications, as well as others that lean to the left, attacking Mr Corbyn and aiming to undermine him at every opportunity. An internal struggle to get control of the NEC, Labour's National Executive Committee, a body that decides the direction and policies of the party is underway. And the state of Israel could be playing a part, one way or another. Not much of the above sits well with this long time Labour voter. She like so many ordinary working class voters feels uncomfortable simply when she hears career politicians speaking about reconnecting with the working class as if this section of society is alien to them. There was a time when working class people occupied the senior roles of the Labour party and indeed that party's seats in the House of Commons. The Tory party front benches became a millionaire's row some years ago and at one time it was a similar picture at the other side of the house. But before you think this piece is all about the politics of envy hold that thought. Most working class people admire those who manage to run a successful political career and along the way help the rest of us. The politics of greed is a Tory concept or at least it used to be. But what about those seeking power in the Labour party that have their own agendas? This week the Manchester and Leeds Jewish Telegraph reports "GOVERNMENT Minister Jo Johnson has demanded an investigation into antisemitism at Oxford. His call came after the university's Labour Club was accused of having "some kind of problem with Jews"." "Joseph Edmund Johnson is a Conservative Party politician. He has been the Member of Parliament for Orpington since the general election in May 2010" and he is the brother of one-time London mayor and the man tipped as a possible future PM of the UK Boris Johnson. The Telegraph continues by saying Oxford’s "co-chairman Alex Chalmers made national headlines this week after he quit the group, accusing it of antisemitism. The 20-year-old history student, who is not Jewish, said he decided to resign after the club endorsed Israel Apartheid Week. Universities Minister Johnson said he was concerned over "reports of intimidation of Jewish students on campuses, which risked curtailing free speech"." While Israel Apartheid Week would need carefully managing as there will be students of the Jewish faith attending the university it seems a fairly good subject for a student protest and as if in some vague way to protect the free speech of some it is being curbed for others. Sadly some have taken anti-Semitism to a whole new level recently but that includes Zionist supporters. Having written and followed reports during the last Israeli occupation of Gaza which resulted in major infrastructure damage to the country and a huge loss of life it is difficult to empathise with the Israeli problem as it stands today. When you build a huge wall, include the side that faces the sea and prevent fisherman making a living, land grab and extend your borders, tell people of your faith across the world "come on come all" and simply expect other residents to vamoose you are on a hiding to nothing. Friends of Israel have many groups across the world and especially in the UK. They receive cross party support already. But it is galling how some are trying to use the Israel Palestine two-state issue to undermine Mr Corbyn. The timing of the Oxford investigation announcement which ties in with a proposed British government ban on any UK based Israeli trade boycott stinks. The government has even tried to say that a ban would protect UK national security. It will of course protect the incomes of those who have a vested interest in such trade and help keep the state of Israel ticking over nicely thank-you while the people of Palestine and Gaza starve. The ban will be for public procurement but once in place it could of course be extended. The IBT Times reports "On 17 February the government published new guidelines that aimed to "stop inappropriate procurement boycotts by public authorities". The guidelines have been published under an "open consultation", which means that British citizens are able to respond to the proposal by emailing their suggestions to the Department for Communities and Local Government." Thousands have reportedly written in to complain about the ban; will all critics be branded anti-semetic? One man who is angling to be re-elected to the NEC and is gathering support is Luke Akehurst. A piece about him in the Jewish Telegraph begins with this "BEING appointed director of BICOM's We Believe in Israel department was a dream job for Luke Akehurst. Luke, who has just stood down after 12 years as a Labour councillor in Hackney, spent 11 years as a lobbyist for a PR company and worked with Weber Shandwick, largely for the defence industry, as well as for property companies and local authorities. "As a PR consultant, you don't get a lot of choice about your clients," he said. "It was almost my dream job to run a pro-Israel campaigning organisation." And therein lies the rub. A man who wants to be part of the body that determines Labour party policy with links to the defence industry and whose dream job was working at the Believe in Israel department. Support for Israel has declined in the UK but that is not down to any type of religious hate but rather people despairing of what they often see these days as a rogue state. Young students have always protested-take David Cameron when he was at Oxford and voicing support for hanging Nelson Mandela. The British electorate needs a Labour party working as one and for issues at home but one that does not support apartheid in the world in my opinion. From the Jewish Telegraph Why non-Jewish Luke's family has always given support to Israel Minister seeks Oxford probe on antisemitism From the Independent Palestinians attack Tony Blair for helping Israel strike 'secret peace deal' with Hamas |
British political scene
The next General Election in the UK may not be scheduled any time soon but the British political landscape is changing. With that in mind this blog will concentrate on the political scene but with a left wing perspective. Opinion pieces and news will bring you the stories that the MSM prefer to ignore. Archives
September 2018
Categories
All
|